Talk:Billboards
Main Article I was thinking maybe we should move this article to something like Billboards_(Burnout_Paradise) instead, and have the redirect as Billboard(s). Reason(s): *We have more than one type of billboard now, so Burnout Billboard or Paradise Billboard wouldn't make sense. *The mainland billboards no longer have Burnout on them, the wording is Paradise. :Sounds good to me, but don't do it yet. I will add it to my list of moves/link fixes I will be doing this weekend. Draft of Billboard walkthru Question - I didn't do the screenshots yet, I wanted to get the writeup out there and then do the map in case the order needed to be changed. (And they will have to wait until I start a new save and get a Manhattan Custom without smashing any gates or BillBoards.) But I am not sure what makes the best shot for these. For the SuperJumps, it was pretty easy, but for the Billboards - for example - for Map #7 which is in the train yard, but you smash it by jumping down from the parking garage - Do you want a shot of the starting point for the jump, or from the rooftop just before the smash, or just from the train yard of the billboard, even though you are a ways away from this shot for the action? Thoughts? BTW, I just checked and if we want to follow precedent, Evild70 just took a shot of the billboard, but to me that is perhaps not as useful as showing how you line up to smash it. Then again, if there are multiple ways to smash it, then it becomes a question of which to use - and EvilD70 even wasn't consistent, for example: http://picasaweb.google.com/evild70/BurnoutParadiseBillboards#5165097923343265922 - His #26 which is my Number 6 (Map 7) - he is showing the Billboard itself, even though you jump onto the roof to smash it. http://picasaweb.google.com/evild70/BurnoutParadiseBillboards#5165098030717448546 - His #40, which is my #20 (Map 24), he is showing the rear side of the Billboard, which you will only see after you have taken the shortcut and are about to smash it. Anyway - here's the rought draft of what I have so far. (Map numbers match the Operation Burnout map in the main article) Also, I'm not stuck, I just ran out of time and wanted to post a progress report: Billboard Smash Walkthrough The following table gives an efficient route to complete most Billboard Smashes and unlock the Billboard achievement. Some of the smashes require a decent car, and the Hunter Manhattan seems to be a good low-ranking choice. Tiger-Heli 12:31, November 23, 2009 (UTC) Draft Comments I prefer EvilD's second shot that is taken right before you drive into the billboard. But, now that I think about it, wouldn't the first one be more helpful in looking for them? *sigh* ::The billboard are much more convoluted than the Super Jumps or Smash Gates. For both of those, you simply show "This is what it looks like when you are about to run through it and get credit" For the billboards - if you read my walkthru, often I don't even talk about where the billboard is (although the map shows it) - I may just say - Drive to this garage and jump off this ramp and you'll smash through the billboard and land on I-88." The main question is do we want to show the billboard (which may have no relation to where you go to smash it), or where you start for the jump to smash it (which might not have the billboard in it), or both. The second option is further complicated if there is more than one method of smashing the billboard, and in some cases your might even want several images (jump from frame 1 to the roof on frame 2 to the roof on frame 3) ideally video works best, but that's quite a bit of effort. Sorry for not making things easier ...Tiger-Heli 15:20, November 21, 2009 (UTC) :::I think just showing the billboard would be sufficient, and far less complicated. ::::That works for me, I've got more to do on the guide, though, and then I'd like to get the map re-numbered and the screenshots will come last.Tiger-Heli 16:39, November 21, 2009 (UTC) On the maps, I would really prefer to use EvilD70's map as a basis, but either map will need the numbers erased and redrawn. That might be difficult without a layered map with the billboard numbers in their own layer, so it might need to be redrawn from scratch.Tiger-Heli 12:31, November 23, 2009 (UTC) :I haven't tried yet, but I think I figured out how to re-number the maps ... Evild70 had a comment on his page that he got the original maps from here and he basically left his at 1600x1200, so I think I should be able to make the blank map the bottom layer and then erase anything off the top layer and the bottom layer will replace it (so I can erase the numbers).Tiger-Heli 20:11, November 23, 2009 (UTC) ::Just experimented and that worked great. Not sure how to put the new numbers on - Evild70 somehow managed to feather the images in black but an Arial Black font in Paint.Net seems to work well and be readable.Tiger-Heli 20:41, November 23, 2009 (UTC) I also found an error on the map on Buropedia of the Paradise City regions. The Western border of Rockridge Cliffs in Harbor Town includes and excludes some land that is part of White Mountain according to both Evild70 and Burnopedia's Billboard maps.Tiger-Heli 12:31, November 23, 2009 (UTC) New Status, Updates, and Questions * Walk-thru text is done - will update later * Map is done using Evild70's map re-numbered to match walk-thru - will update later. * Screenshots are done - will update later - screenshots are not always taken showing how to smash them - my idea was you will use the screenshot to verify what area you are in and the text or video to see how to smash it. * Videos are NOT done yet, but I can create them - using Fraps and Virtualdub at 512x384 resolution, videos are 5 to 6 Mb each. Questions: :* Burnopedia does not seem to support videos, and Photobucket does not on free accounts, but I think I can upload to YouTube, correct? :* YouTube supports up to 2GB per video, so I could easily shoot at 1024x768, but the file size would be larger for anyone wanting to download the files or view them here (and possible bandwidth issues). Many of the vids on YT are 320x240 and fuzzy, so 512x384 is an improvement, any thoughts on preferred resolution? :* Videos are currently in .avi format and that seems to be all that Fraps supports, but YouTube only mentions MP4 and FLV formats, so I don't know if YouTube will allow .avi files (I forgot to bring a test file to upload). I think there are freeware converters from .avi to either format, but not sure which is preferred. Thoughts? Thanks!Tiger-Heli 14:56, November 30, 2009 (UTC) Also - is there any way to turn off weather (fog) effects in the game? I took all the screenshots of the billboards at 12:00 noon, but sometimes the fog rolled in and I didn't want to wait for it to clear. For the videos, I would prefer clear weather, but not a show-stopper ... (Doesn't look like it per Google, though)Tiger-Heli 18:31, November 30, 2009 (UTC) :Yes, use Youtube. :Use the best quality you have. Youtube has an option to view the video in either normal or high quality (or HD if the resolution is huge). :Youtube axcepts avi, it just says that mp4 and flv are prefered. :No, fog cannot be turned off. :Oh, and one more thing, Youtube videos can only be 10 minutes long, so take that in mind when you're deciding how the video(s) should be. ::5 things; ::*Use Windows Movie Maker to turn your AVIs into WMVs as AVI puts quality in your videos that you don't really need. ::*Youtube goes from 640x480 to 1208x720 (720p) resolutions for videos. ::*You can't turn fog off. ::*Why not have imgaes that link to your videos. ::*Youtube supports many files during upload but converts them to MP4 once upload is complete. ::Ive been here :::You mean 1280x720? And it also says it supports 1920x1080. http://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=132460 ::::Paradise on PC doesn't go to 1080 without a screen that supports it. :::::*Windows Movie Maker didn't seem to work well for me. The Raw FRAPS AVI's were around 120 Mb, and VirtualDub got them down to 5-6 Mb (at 512x384). I downloaded Moyea Video4Web and will likely try going from .avi to MP4 or FLV with both the raw and compressed files and use whichever works best (preferably the raw as it eliminates another step). :::::*I use 1024x768 for the game, but FRAPS has an option for half-size, but I can disable that. I COULD use up to 1280x720 (looks squished on-screen but fine for playback, or 1280x960, but I don't know that there's much point for web video. :::::*Bummer on the fog. :::::*I was planning something like this, but I think I accidentally deleted it: I'm guessing the Video portion could link to the YouTube file ...Tiger-Heli 19:30, November 30, 2009 (UTC) Added the video above, but it probably should open in a new page! Tiger-Heli 19:53, November 30, 2009 (UTC) :You might want to make the video size a little larger. ::Or better yet :::Don't mean to be dense, Exlonox, but which video size needs to be larger. The table is using 100px width for the video and the image. Obviously, you would want to actually view the video in higher res, which is what I meant by having it open in a new page. I just "stole" the example vid from the Annihilator page, but it is 320x240 on YT, and I am talking about 1024x768 vids - but do you think that is too low? LemansRacer has the right idea, but I don't know if people would want to see the screenshots at 1024x768 also, and that might be hard to figure out ... Thoughts? Tiger-Heli 20:05, November 30, 2009 (UTC) ::::I meant the video in the table. It's not nearly large enough to see what's going on in it. :::::Well first off you didn't close one of your spans so everyone's text is yellow, but I fixed that. And for the videos, if you add #t=number heres to the end of the url, then it'll go to that many seconds into the video. That way the links can jump right to where that billboard is in the video. ::::::I'm thinking of two options: ::::::*The table that I had with separate screenshots and videos, but I would want the video one to just show the preview from YT and then open in a new tab when clicked. ::::::*LeMansRacer's idea works great for me, if nobody thinks the full-size screengrabs are important. ::::::BTW, I'm planning on 120 separate videos, one for each billboard, so no real need to go XX number of seconds in, and if they take more than 10 minutes we're all in trouble!!! Tiger-Heli 20:40, November 30, 2009 (UTC) Well have fun with that! Every video is going to be like 10 seconds or less! :The simple ones will be. The ones that you have to climb a garage and jump to another building and stop on the roof before proceeding will be longer. And that is a problem because ... ??? Tiger-Heli 21:00, November 30, 2009 (UTC) ::He's pointing out that it will be more work for you. :::Yea, I just think it would be easier/shorter for you to upload 12 vids with 10 smashes each than to sit there and upload 120 videos. ::::The way I play, it will take a couple attempts to hit the simple ones, 5 or 6 attempts to hit the difficult ones, so separate is probably better, but point taken ...Tiger-Heli 21:17, November 30, 2009 (UTC) :::::Use a video editor to cut out the failed attemps. ::::::It's really not that bad though - F9 to record, F9 to quit recording, if I mess up I just delete the vid and start again .... (Not saying it won't take a while, but ...) Tiger-Heli 21:26, November 30, 2009 (UTC) Well there you go! When you finish 10 videos just merge them all together. 12/1/09 Discussion Is there a way to have the snapshot and if you click on it have it link to the youTube video like LeMansRacer did above, but then have a text link to the snapshot image below that if people want to see the snapshot larger? Does that sound like it would work? (I thought I did that here, but the video link no longer works (although it is embedded, i.e. you see the youtube link on the screentip, but clicking the image goes to the snapshot): Got some interesting video results last night, and some things I could use some help and advice on: * 1024x768 really jumps the file size, but that's not a huge deal. A 54.5 second video was 507 MB compared to about 120 MB at 512x384. Compressing the file with VirtualDub reduced the file size to 16 MB, but the result was blotchy and noticeably degraded - much worse than at 512x384, where file sizes were about 120 and 5-6 MB, respectively. * Moyea Video4Web Freeware is an interesting program. There are dropdowns for Video and Audio Quality, but only Medium can be selected from the drop-down (High and Low are listed with PRO next to them and are not selectable). However, if you click "Settings" you can change the output size from 640x480 to "Original" and select High Quality for both options. This must be done prior to converting any file, though. The uncompressed .avi file reduced to a 32 MB .FLV or .MP4 file with little to no loss in quality and with little difference between the two files. It took about 2 minutes to compress the files. Oddly, the 16 MB compressed .AVI ended up as a 25 MB .FLV, so no reason to use it. * The audio is horribly distorted (in all files), and I'm not sure why. I started out getting no audio at all, and after searching Google and checking things out I found out that in the Realtek Audio control panel under Mixer - Recording, "Stereo Mix" was set to "Mute". Audio now records but there is a metallic hum to the engine sounds and other items in the game. Initially, I thought the input level was too loud, and turning it down seemed to help, but listening to earlier and later video files, the noise is still there, just quieter. I'm seriously considering muting the mixer again and just not having sound in the videos. * This site recommends changing to Windows input in FRAPS and disabling Audio Hardware Acceleration, but I didn't try that yet. * Also, I'm recording FRAPS at 30 FPS to reduce filesize, don't know if that could be causing the issue, but didn't experiment with anything else. * I do have one of the videos and can upload it if you would like to hear it - if that would help. Video is here. Thanks Tiger-Heli 12:18, December 1, 2009 (UTC) NEW QUESTION: From what I can tell, even if you select HD and expand the browser, YT only displays the image at 640x480 (although it says it supports up to 1920x1080). Unless I set an option incorrectly when I uploaded the file, is there any good reason to make the final .MP4 or .FLV videos at 1024x768 if YT will only display them at 640x480 and I assume end users can only download them at this resolution and about 5 Mb files? Tiger-Heli 13:37, December 1, 2009 (UTC) :All this video speak is foreign to me. But, I do have some advice for the video. Could you make it a little less "rambling" for lack of a better word. It would be much better if your route was concise and to-the-point. ::As far as video, there are two issues: ::* I am having issues with the sound being distorted - just seeing if anyone using FRAPS for video capture had a similar problem (or more importantly - a solution). ::* YouTube says it accepts up to 1920x1080 and I was told to use the highest resolution I could - which in practicality was 1024x768. But when I uploaded it to YouTube, it always displays at 640x480, so I don't see the point in creating it at 1024x768 if nobody can view or download it at that resolution. ::* As far as "rambling" - except for where I smacked the wall and got stuck for a bit, the video is meant to follow the text write-up which starts at the Junkyard and smashes the Billboard on I-88. I could just show the I-88 portion of the smash, but then you have to hope people can figure out what the text means when I said "there is a ramp up to I-88 just to the right of a yellow shipping container." I'm open to suggestions, if everyone thinks the videos are overly long and detailed, though. Tiger-Heli 19:46, December 1, 2009 (UTC) 12/2/09 Discussion I have now replaced the first video and added the next 7 - they are here, but might still be processing: http://www.youtube.com/user/galaga2112#p/u Did a bit more experimenting, and I found out what doesn't work, which is ALMOST as useful as finding out what does: * Sound: :* Use Windows Input had little or no effect, so I set it back to Detect Best Sound Input. :* Disabling Audio Hardware Acceleration was a BIG mistake, sound was much quieter and a bit distorted in-game and even worse on video playback. :* No Sync was a bad choice, the sound might have improved, but the song kept playing for about 15 seconds after motion in the video stopped. :* Changing FPS from 30 to 25 FPS had a marginal improvement in sound quality, and changing the FPS to 60 gave me a huge decrease. Going to 20, video quality seemed to be worse, so I'll likely stay at 25. :* Bottom line, as far as I can likely tell is onboard sound is probably not good enough for FRAPS, although it is good enough for gameplay. :* I'll likely leave sound on unless it really bugs people on the YouTube video. * Resolution: :* I tried reducing the resolution to 640x480 with Moyea, and I thought the file was much more grainy than the YouTube video. Can't give a good reason, other than maybe Moyea does a poor conversion, and/or I was watching YouTube on a flat screen and Moyea on a CRT and not doing back to back comparisons, but it's not a real problem to record at 1024x768. BTW, YouTube does downsize, b/c when I downloaded my own video from my account it was 4.7 Mb and it was 32 Mb when I uploaded it. That means I need to save my originals, but that's not a problem. * Rambling: :* I don't think I am going to worry too much about this, and people will just have to deal with it. Some smashes will be more direct than the first one. Part of the issue is that unlike a Burning Route, I'm not in a huge hurry to smash the billboard. Also, people who know how to get there can fast-forward to the smash, but if I made the video shorter, people who don't know where to find the smash would not get there. The text walk-thru really should be enough, but I also want to keep in mind that some people might find my YouTube vid's without finding the walk-thru here, so I want the files to work for them. We still need to figure out how to do the table for the walk-thru. I like my modification of LeMansRacer's idea, but can't figure out how to make it work ... Tiger-Heli 12:21, December 2, 2009 (UTC) December 5, 2009 Got the table fixed - turned out incredibly easy - I just had left out a "link =". I will use this format unless anyone sees something better - it shows the images, links to the video in a new window, and has a link to the full-res image below it if anyone wants to see it. Thanks LeMansRacer for the ideas!!!!Tiger-Heli 15:13, December 5, 2009 (UTC) Question: Does text ever get deleted from the Discussion page? A lot of the questions/ideas I asked above are no longer applicable and have been overcome by events. Do they stay here forever?Tiger-Heli 15:31, December 5, 2009 (UTC) :Nice work. To answer your question, nothing is deleted from a talk page (except for spam/vandalism control). If you want people to ignore something, you can strike it out. But, I discourage you from striking in excess. ::Thanks and no problem - I just thought this page was getting a bit cluttered ...Tiger-Heli 20:19, December 5, 2009 (UTC) December 14, 2009 GOOD NEWS: I figured out the sound problem - I installed a new Realtek Sound driver, and I don't think that was the fix, but it reset all the sound settings to defaults. The sound was somewhat "tinny" now, but sounds fine if FRAPS. I think I probably had an environment variable (auditorium, concert hall) set before, because I tried selecting one and the in-game sound was somewhat like what FRAPS was recording before. So the key is to set the environment to NONE - at least when recording with FRAPS.Tiger-Heli 11:49, December 14, 2009 (UTC) BAD NEWS: I recorded 75 smashes before I figured this out, and I don't really plan to re-do them.Tiger-Heli 11:49, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :Glad you know what went wrong. Thanks for all your work. ::The tables still helpful, you never know it could contain some people's last billboards... Speedracer32 20:24, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :::What are you talking about @Speed ? ::::Lol I didn't notice that he had done all the the description for the billboards... Oh and this is a talk page about billboards, right? :P Speedracer32 21:08, December 14, 2009 (UTC) Exlonox - actually, I'm not sure I do know what went wrong - it is a bit weird (what isn't with me) - After I updated the driver, I could hear the sound as worse when recorded with an environment set in the driver. But after I turned off the environment, I watched one of the first MP4's and it sounded fine with the new driver, and I know I had the environment turned on and good sound in the game and bad on the video originally. Not going to worry about it anymore, though ...Tiger-Heli 17:34, December 21, 2009 (UTC) 12/21/09 - LeMansRacer Edits Hopefully this won't come off the wrong way .... I like most of the changes LeMans made to the table. However, I based the table off the Super Jumps Walkthru (b/c I didn't understand WikiTable format). If these same changes had been made to it, I would have had an easier (faster) time editing some of the entries. I understand the description column was limited to 600px b/c of people viewing it at 1024x, but it looks really squished on a 1650x display. That may depend on the browser though - on SeaMonkey if you leave one column unspecified it gets all the remaining space, but that might not be true on all browsers. Change it back to 600 if you think it is better. I would like the Description heading to stay center justified, but the individual entries to be left justified - IMHO numbers and headings and images look better centered, but long paragraphs look better left justified - just my opinion though, and I don't know an easy way to do it for the whole table ... opinions, comments??? Tiger-Heli 21:25, December 21, 2009 (UTC) :It says on the main page that the site is best viewed in 1280x1024. ::I would think you know this, but just in case you aren't following me - the bigger question is whether we want to LIMIT the page to looking good at 1280x1024. In other words - I assume the left frame is approximately 250 px. Even if you specify 600 for the description column - if I view the page at 640x480, it is a pain to read and I have to scroll the page to read the text. Even with no width specified, it would look bad at 640x480, but I probably wouldn't have to scroll - it would just have a tiny column in the middle. If we set the text at a fixed 600, it probably looks great at 1280, but it looks squished at 1650. If we let it float, it looks good at most anything probably over 800x600. BTW - what I didn't consider is how this might affect printing of the table, but ... Tiger-Heli 22:04, December 21, 2009 (UTC) :::I had no idea. At no point did I learn about Human Computer Interfaces and using an unlimited width would squish the long winded descriptions when viewed at a lower resolution ergo making them extremely lengthy along the vertical axis instead of a more practical side scroll. but your probably right, what do I know. ::::I don't want to argue with you, so let's just do it my way .... ;-) - No seriously, I think setting a fixed 600px works better for users viewing the site at 800x600 or less, and non-fixed likely works better at 1024x768 and above. It's mainly Exlonox's (I think) site, so I guess it should be his call. It's simple to change back anyway. OTOH, the center-justified description really bothers me. Is there an easy way to make it left justified? (I know I could do it by deleting your "Style Text align:Center" code and then manually center-aligning all the Item, Location, and image tags (which is what I think I had) - but that's a lot of effort and undoing.Tiger-Heli 12:29, December 22, 2009 (UTC) :::::There, I fixed it. Not the most elegant solution, but the description is left justified. Someone (I will later if nobody else does), can remove all the 175px and center tags from the image column as I don't think they are needed anymore.Tiger-Heli 14:20, December 22, 2009 (UTC) ::::::It's not my site. It's whoever uses it's. I just generally am the one who maintains it. The table currently looks fine to me. :::::::Its all will and good that it looks best at your resolution, just dont forget that this is a public site and the public are all the same. ::::::::Understood - IMHO, it looked too squished with a fixed 600 px column width. I don't see many people using less than 1024x768, although Netbook users likely disagree.Tiger-Heli 16:02, December 22, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::Add 600px, 175px, 30px & 100px and you get 905px. The table was 905px wide and 175px for 175px images means no wasted space. Okay - I went ahead and did some testing. Without seeing the CSS for the page, I can't verify this, but on my screen at 1680x1050, the side bar with the links is 216px. That might scale smaller or larger for different resolutions (you can set it to 12% of screen width - for example, but it seems to be a fixed 220-ish pixels from what I can tell). (At 800x600, it was still 220). That means if the description is fixed at 600px, you are using 1125 px for the sidebar and table, so with the screen at 1024x, you have to scroll the sidebar to the side and then it looks okay. Less than that you will have to scroll horizontally to read the text (well at 800x600 or less at least). At 1680x1050, the entire page is only 1125, so you have 555 pixels of wasted space. I checked and the way it is now is readable even down to 640x480, and some people even run more than 1680x1050. (OTOH, I did find a page that said if you don't specify all column widths for the table, it becomes ambiguous and depends on the browser for how it is handled. Personally though, I like it the way it is now. BTW, I do like your other edits with moving the subregion to a new line and tidying up the code!Tiger-Heli 16:47, December 22, 2009 (UTC) : The 175px tag definitely NEEDS to stay on the images - the tags are no longer required - I removed them from the first ten items.Tiger-Heli 16:54, December 22, 2009 (UTC) ::Hmm... I see that there are a lot of links that need to be inserted into the table, shall I start to insert them? Speedracer32 20:10, December 22, 2009 (UTC) :::For links to places that are covered on Burnopedia? Sure, go ahead - the table's on the main page so it's fair game for anyone to edit now (I guess it was when it was on discussion, but it would have bugged me if I lost track of what had been updated. Thanks!!!Tiger-Heli 20:56, December 22, 2009 (UTC) ::::BTW - I'm sure the table could use some proof-reading also. The links should go to the correct You-Tube videos, but I didn't verify that, and you read what you thought you said, not the text when you proof-read your own work. Thanks!Tiger-Heli 21:19, December 22, 2009 (UTC) :::::Well the links and corrections are done all up to Billboard #40. I'll continue with the rest tomorrow, I also left a message on your talk page about it :) Speedracer32 21:48, December 22, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Thanks Speedracer32 - much appreciated!!! :::::::I did another 40 Billboards, just 40 to go now... Speedracer32 12:19, December 23, 2009 (UTC) December 23, 2009 - KonigCCX page edits. Not a huge deal to me, but I got used to referring to dates as 23Dec09. This is a compact format and avoids the ambiguity with 06/07/10, which in the USA would be 07Jun10, but in Europe would be 06Jul10. Whatever everyone prefers to see is fine, though.Tiger-Heli 12:04, December 23, 2009 (UTC)